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发信人: icey (不谈爱情), 信区: Art
标 题: 再读史托克豪森与年轻人（2）english（zz）[转载]
发信站: 荔园晨风BBS站 (Sat Oct 26 23:15:09 2002), 转信
【 以下文字转载自 Music 讨论区 】
【 原文由 icey 所发表 】
Earlier this year, Radio 3 sent a package of tapes to
Karlheinz Stockhausen. The tapes contained music by
Aphex Twin, Plasticman, Scanner and Daniel Pemberton.
Then in August, the station's reporter Dick Witts travelled
to Salzburg to meet Stockhausen and ask him for his
opinion on the music of these four "Technocrats". But first,
they talked about the German composer's own youthful
experiments in electronic synthesis...
DW: When you started as a composer, how different were
the conditions from today?
KS: I studied music as a pianist, and learning all the
traditional techniques of composing, in an institution called
Stadtliche Hofschule fur Musik. We had about ten
disciplines to study: choir, orchestra, conducting, piano was
my main instrument, then musicology, harmony and
counterpoint. I wrote several works in traditional styles, but
also two works, so-called 'free compositions', one for
orchestra and alto voice, a work which is still available on
CD called the Drei Lieder. I started composing at the age of
20, 1948, the first time I considered my music to be of
some general importance, and they are available, like the
violin sonatina...
Why did you consider those works a beginning?
Because everything that could be studied with the
professors at the conservatory, the other students also were
able to write. So there was nothing special to write a fugue
or to write a piece in the style of Hindemith. But it was
special to write something different from all other
composers. I wrote, for example a small theatre piece,
Burleska, together with two colleagues. We divided the
piece into three parts. My part did not sound as the
newspapers said [of the other two parts] like Orff, or like
Hindemith, but different. So I was very proud that they said
my section did not sound 'like' something.
I Composed Kreuzspiel, or Crossplay [1951], and I knew
when I wrote it that it would sound like nothing else in the
world. People were quite upset when they heard it for the
first time at the national summer courses for contemporary
music in Darmstadt, where I conducted the piece; it was
violently interrupted by the public. And since then I have
composed works from one to the next, always waiting until
I've found something that I had never imagined before, or
that sounded like anything existing.
Can you hear a line, a unity, in everything you've written,
from Kreuzspiel to Licht?
Many lines; depends on which level. For example, space
exploration in music is one line, then sound- and
word-relationship is another line, from the beginning until
today, then the discovery of polyphony in many-layered
composition is another line ; and that is what is essential, the
discovery of sounds which are derived from formulas for
particular compositions. That goes from the very first
electronic studies until my very last works which I have just
finished, which I call electronic music with sound-scenes for
Friday From Light, which is two hours 25 minutes of music
which I work on in the electronic music studio in Cologne.
This is another line. Then the development from serial
technique to formula technique is again another line. So it
depends just where you touch my musical mind, and I will
show you how many, many lines are running in parallel and
crossing each other constantly in different compositions.
Going back to Kreuzspiel - that was around the time you
first started using technology...
Yes. 1952 I started working in the studio for musique
concrete, of the French radio. Because I was very intrigued
by the possibility to compose one's own sound. I was
allowed to work in the studio of Pierre Scaeffer: I made
artificial sounds, synthetic sounds, and I composed my first
etude: Etude Concrete. At the same time, I was extremely
curious, and went to the musee de L'homme in Paris with a
tape recorder and microphones, and I recorded all the
different instruments of the ethnological department:
Indonesian instruments, Japanese instruments, Chinese
instruments; less European instruments because I knew
them better, but even piano sounds... Then I analysed these
sounds one by one, and wrote down the frequencies which
I found and the dynamic level of the partials of the spectra,
in order to know what the sound is made of, what the
sound is, as a matter of fact; what is the difference between
a lithophone sound or, let's say, a Thai gong sound of a
certain pitch. And very slowly I discovered the nature of
sounds.The idea to analyse sounds gave me the idea of
synthesize sounds. So then I was looking for synthesizers or
the first electronic generators, and I superimposed vibrations
in order to compose spectra: timbres. I do this now, still,
after 43 years.
Have things got easier for you?
No. really not. The last three weeks I just spent every day
in the studio, eight hours, working with a new digital
technique with a Capricorn mixing console, the newest one,
from Siemens, or the English Neve Nicam, from
Cambridge, and two 24 channel Sony tape recorders, one
being the leader and one running in slave, in order to make
very special movements in space... And I must tell you that
out of eight hours per day I waited seven hours without any
result, because the technicians, sound engineers, didn't
know how to deal with these instruments, and had never
encountered problems which I had imposed. So it is
becoming more difficult for me.
I wonder to what extent your fascination with technology
helps you as a composer, and to what extent your
frustration with it helps you?
[Tragic] I don't know how to go on. No matter how difficult
it is. Very often I am quite desperate.
You say your music speaks of the essential unity of the
universe; I wonder how you came to this realisation, and
how it speaks through the music?
Well, I didn't come to it. That is the oldest tradition of all
music styles, music cultures on this planet. The beginning of
every art music development, in China, or in India or in
European monasteries was always to relate the art of
shaping and composing sounds with the art [by which] the
stars are shaped and composed. Astronomy, mathematics
and music were the highest disciplines throughout the
centuries since the beginning of European art music in the
monasteries, let's say in the tenth until the 14th, 15th
century... I have studied all music of Europe as a student - I
had to - and I at a very early age became aware, also
naturally, [that] certain music, like the Art Of The Fuge by
Johann Sebastian Bach or the Musikalishe Opfer, [has]
always known about this relationship between the laws of
the universe, astronomical laws, and the laws of the music
of this Earth. For example, I admire very much the music of
Anton von Webern, who is practically not known by the
large public today. But he studied Senfi, composer of the
renaissance, German composer who also knew the
isorhythmic Motette, the technique of isorhythms, and
Webern was very, very aware, as a collector of very strange
plants, he always went on the mountains, in the Alps, to
collect the most beautiful and loneliest plants in the world,
and dried them. And his music is like that: he knew that the
same laws which ruled the inner life of atoms and galaxies
applied to the music. To the art music.
Can we talk about the music we sent you? It was very good
of you to listen to it. I wonder if you could give some
advice to these musicians.
I wish those musicians would not allow themselves any
repetitions, and would go faster in developing their ideas or
their findings, because I don't appreciate at all this
permanent repetitive language. It is like someone who is
stuttering all the time, and can't get words out of his mouth.
I think musicians should have very concise figures and not
rely on this fashionable psychology. I don't like psychology
whatsoever: using music like a drug is stupid. One shouldn't
do that : music is the product of the highest human
intelligence, and of the best senses, the listening senses and
of imagination and intuition. And as soon as it becomes just
a means for ambiance, as we say, environment, or for being
used for certain purposes, then music becomes a whore,
and one should not allow that really; one should not serve
any existing demands or in particular not commercial values.
That would be terrible: that is selling out the music.
I heard the piece Aphex Twin of Richard James carefully: I
think it would be very helpful if he listens to my work Song
Of The Youth, which is electronic music, and a young boy's
voice singing with himself. Because he would then
immediately stop with all these post-African repetitions, and
he would look for changing tempi and changing rhythms,
and he would not allow to repeat any rhythm if it were
varied to some extent and if it did not have a direction in its
sequence of variations.
And the other composer - musician, I don't know if they
call themselves composers...
They're sometimes called 'sound artists'...
No, 'Technocrats', you called them. He's called Plasticman,
and in public, Richie Hawtin. It starts with 30 or 40 - I don't
know, I haven't counted them - fifths in parallel, always the
same perfect fifths, you see, changing from one to the next,
and then comes in hundreds of repetitions of one small
section of an African rhythm: duh-duh-dum, etc, and I think
it would be helpful if he listened to Cycle for percussion,
which is only a 15-minute long piece of mine for a
percussionist, but there he will have a hell to understand the
rhythms, and I think he will get a taste for very interesting
non-metric and non-periodic rhythms. I know that he wants
to have a special effect in dancing bars, or wherever it is, on
the public who like to dream away with such repetitions, but
he should be very careful, because the public will sell him
out immediately for something else, if a new kind of musical
drug is on the market. So he should be very careful and
separate as soon as possible from the belief in this kind of
public.
The other is Robin Rimbaud, Scanner, I've heard, with
radio noises. He is very experimental, because he is
searching in a realm of sound which is not usually used for
music. But I think he should transform more what he finds.
He leaves it too much in a raw state. He has a good sense
of atmosphere, but he is too repetitive again. So let him
listen to my work Hymnen. There are found objects - a lot
like he finds with his scanner, you see. But I think he
should learn from the art of transformation, so that what
you find sounds completely new, as I sometimes say, like
an apple on the moon.
Then there's another one: Daniel Pemberton. His work
which I heard has noise loops: he likes loops, a loop effect,
like in musique concrete, where I worked in 1952, and
Pierre Henry and Schaeffer himself, they found some
sounds, like say the sounds of a casserole, they made a
loop, and then they transposed this loop. So I think he
should give up this loop; it is too oldfashioned. Really. He
likes train rhythms, and I think when he comes to a soft
spot, a quiet, his harmony sounds to my ears like ice cream
harmony. It is so kitchy; he should stay away from these
ninths and sevenths and tenths in parallel: so, look for a
harmony that sounds new and sounds like Pemberton and
not like anything else. He should listen to Kontakte, which
has among my works the largest scale of harmonic, unusual
and very demanding harmonic relationships. I like to tell the
musicians that they should learn from works which already
gone through a lot of temptations and have refused to give
in to these stylistic or to these fashionable temptations...
Portions of this interview were broadcast on Radio 3 in
October as part of the Technocrats mini series, which
examined Stockhausen's musical legacy. This partially
edited transcript is printed here [the WIRE, Nov. 1995]
courtesy of Radio 3 and Soundbite Productions. The music
which Stockhausen was commenting on included "Ventolin"
and "Alberto Balsam" by Aphex Twin, Plasticman's Sheet
One album, "Micrographia", "Dimension" and "Discreet" by
Scanner, and "Phoenix", "Phosphine", "Novelty Track" and
"Voices" by Daniel Pemberton.
Advice from clever children...
Following Stockhausen's advice to our Technocrats, we
decided to play them excerpts from the compositions which
the German composer suggested they listen to and learn
from. Here's what they had to say...
Aphex Twin on Song Of The Youth
Mental! I've heard that song before; I like it. I didn't agree
with him. I thought he should listen to a couple of tracks of
mine: "Didgeridoo", then he'd stop making abstract, random
patterns you can't dance to. Do you reckon he can dance?
You could dance to Song of the Youth, but it hasn't got a
groove in it, there's no bassline. I know it was probably
made in the 50s, but I've got plenty of wicked percussion
records made in the 50s that are awesome to dance to. And
they've got basslines. I could remix it: I don't know about
making it better; I wouldn't want to make it into a dance
version, but I could probably make it a bit more anally
technical. But I'm sure he could these days, because tape is
really slow. I used to do thingslike that with tape, but it does
take forever, and I'd never do anything like that again with
tape. Once you've got your computer sorted out, it pisses all
over stuff like that, you can do stuff so fast. It has a
different sound, but a bit more anal.
I haven't heard anything new by him; the last thing was a
vocal record, Stimmung, and I didn't really like that. Would
I take his comments to heart? The ideal thing would be to
meet him in a room and have a wicked discussion. For all I
know, he could be taking the piss. It's a bit hard to have a
discussion with someone via other people.
I don't think I care about what he thinks. It is interesting,
but it's disappointing, because you'd imagine he'd say that
anyway. It wasn't anything surprising. I don't know
anything about the guy, but I expected him to have that sort
of attitude. Loops are good to dance to...
He should hang out with me and my mates: that would be a
laugh. I'd be quite into having him around.
Scanner on Hymnen
It's interesting that I've not heard this before, and maybe
Thomas Koner hasn't and so on, but you can relate it to our
work. I don't know whether it's conscious or not. I was two
years old when this was written! Stockhausen says he don't
like repetitions: what I like about repetition is it can draw the
listener and lull you into a false sense of security, but when
it gets too abstract - this is cut-ups - I find it very difficult to
digest over a long period of time. He's a lapsed Catholic,
and there's the sense that it's meant to be a religious
experience passing through these records, like a purging of
the system. Whether you like it or not, you're affected in
one way or another. I'd like to hear this live.
I prefer the gentler passages. I do find myself irritated by
that barrage of sound against sound over a long period of
time: an alternative kind of repetition. That's why I like Jim
O'Rourke's work, because it works over long periods.
I wonder about him putting himself into the recording; is it a
vanity thing, or part of the process? With the scanner, it's
like live editing, which is like this as well. When you scan, if
you don't like something you flick between frequencies,
when you DJ you cut between records, and it is an artform
as a form of live editing...
Reminds me of the Holger Czukay LP Der Osten Ist Rot,
cutting between national anthems, like tuning through a
radio: I don't know whether this is actually happening or
not. This is very good actually - better than I expected. At
the end there's a recording of him breathing. It's quite
uncomfortable - like being inside his head.
I take some of what he said about my music to heart. Part
of what I'm interested in is transforming material. Lots of
the sounds I use are off the scanner or the shortwave radio.
Lots of people wouldn't realise that sometimes a bass sound
isn't a keyboard bass sound: it's a little blip on the phone. So
I do try and transform the material as much as possible. I
disagree about repetition: I think, as John Cage said,
repetition is a form of change, and it's a concept you either
agree or disagree with. I like repetitions; I like Richie
Hawtin's work for that very aspect. In a way it is like a
religious experience: if his work is about spirituality, then
this is a kind of alternative, non-religious spirituality, where
you're drawn in by this block of rhythm; it's an incredible
feeling, the way it moves you physically, and moves you in
a dancefloor as well.
Things like this are designed to be listened to over long
periods of time, and sometimes I think it could do with
some editing. Most contemporary sound artists are working
within a four to ten minute time scale, basically. And to be
honest, for most people that's enough.
Daniel Pemberton on Kontakte
At first I expected someone hitting a piano randomly, but
there were happenings in there, with stereo panning and
effects. I was very impressed considering the time it was
done: the 1960s. He was going on about how everyone's
stuff was repetitive, but his stuff is the complete opposite:
so unrepetitive that it never really got anywhere. Not
necessarily a bad thing, but it didn't have any development
in it: sounded like an Old School FSOL. When he
recommends Kontakte for its "very demanding harmonic
relationships", it sounds a bit suspect to me: the whole piece
seems to be dealing far more with timbre than with
harmonic relationship. It's obviously based around sound,
and any harmonics on there, to the non-musical ear, sound
like a piano hit randomly. It would be very good to put
some Hip Hop breaks under, actually.
What he said about me was quite funny: he accuses me of
old hat... I was born in 1977, 25 after [Kontakte], a longer
time than I've lived. I'm still learning musical history. If my
whole career goes down the pan, at least I've got a future
with Mr Whippy! And for him to call eigths, ninth and
tenths 'kitschy'! The scales I commonly use aren't too
adventurous, but that's because they're the ones that sound
nice. The stuff I've done which is unlistenable, I haven't
released because no one would enjoy it.
It's good to have other people's views. I ignore them in the
sense that I know what I want to do: his criticisms won't
make me throw everything away and start working with
bizarre new scales and fantastic new instruments. I know
what he means about loops though; that's because I haven't
got much equipment.
Get a chewn, mate! I think he should develop his music a
bit more. Try and repeat some of the ideas, work on them,
build them up; you can still change them. He should listen
to a track off my forthcoming album, Homemade.
Stockhausen should experiment more with standard
melodies, try and subvert them; he should stop being so
afraid of the normal: by being so afraid of the normal he's
being normal himself by being the complete opposite. He
should try to blend the two together: that would be new and
interesting. To me, anyway.
Interviews by Rob Young. Richie Hawtin was not available
for his comments on Zyklus.
（本文原刊于前卫音乐网）
--
你问我为什么是稻草人，我笑笑，不忍回答。
难道我可以说是因为稻草人没有心吗？
我多想没有心，这样就永远不怕伤害。
可以吗？
我可以这么说吗？
无法面对你的过去，你的虚伪，你的世故和成熟。
※ 来源:．荔园晨风BBS站WWW bbs.szu.edu.cn. [FROM: 218.17.89.1]
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※ 转载:·荔园晨风BBS站 bbs.szu.edu.cn·[FROM: 192.168.34.218]
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